Forced Compliance Behaviour

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Gillie
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Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by Gillie » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:51 pm

:x
Cognitive dissonance refers to a situation involving conflicting attitudes, beliefs or behaviours. This produces a feeling of discomfort leading to an alteration in one of the attitudes, beliefs or behaviours to reduce the discomfort and restore balance etc.

Festinger's (1957) cognitive dissonance theory suggests that we have an inner drive to hold all our attitudes and beliefs in harmony and avoid disharmony (or dissonance).

Attitudes may change because of factors within the person. An important factor here is the principle of cognitive consistency, the focus of Festinger's (1957) theory of cognitive dissonance. This theory starts from the idea that we seek consistency in our beliefs and attitudes in any situation where two cognitions are inconsistent.

Leon Festinger (1957) proposed cognitive dissonance theory, which states that a powerful motive to maintain cognitive consistency can give rise to irrational and sometimes maladaptive behaviour.

According to Festinger, we hold many cognitions about the world and ourselves; when they clash, a discrepancy is evoked, resulting in a state of tension known as cognitive dissonance. As the experience of dissonance is unpleasant, we are motivated to reduce or eliminate it, and achieve consonance (i.e. agreement).

Cognitive dissonance was first investigated by Leon Festinger, arising out of a participant observation study of a cult which believed that the earth was going to be destroyed by a flood, and what happened to its members — particularly the really committed ones who had given up their homes and jobs to work for the cult — when the flood did not happen.

While fringe members were more inclined to recognize that they had made fools of themselves and to "put it down to experience", committed members were more likely to re-interpret the evidence to show that they were right all along (the earth was not destroyed because of the faithfulness of the cult members).


Forced Compliance Behaviour

When someone is forced to do (publicly) something they (privately) really don't want to do, dissonance is created between their cognition (I didn't want to do this) and their behaviour (I did it).

Forced compliance occurs when an individual performs an action that is inconsistent with his or her beliefs. The behaviour can't be changed, since it was already in the past, so dissonance will need to be reduced by re-evaluating their attitude to what they have done.


https://www.simplypsychology.org/cognit ... nance.html

We all know that good people can be 'forced' or choose to do bad things.

Some honesty will be required to answer these questions:

• What situations were you subjected to in BCF / MCF etc, where you behaved against your conscience?

• How did you reduce dissonance or the discomfort you felt, by adjusting your beliefs to be in line with your actions?


Thanomere84
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by Thanomere84 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:50 pm

To the first question: I was asked to actively shun people, some of whom were longtime friends, and a few going back even as far as childhood friends. I am an outgoing and friendly person by nature... and shunning is not something that comes easily to me. But when pressure was put on me to conform, out of my own thoughts that I had to shun in order to be a good 'deacon' in the 'lampstand administration', I did it, though it did not bring much pleasure to me to do so.

To the second question: When I felt guilty about the shunning that I did, I tried to seek verification from the other Ipoh Christian Chapel people. They would tell me I was 'doing it right' and that I was playing my part in 'bringing the lost person to repentance'. I really learnt my lesson well on the day I myself became a person to be shunned.

surprisedbyjoy
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by surprisedbyjoy » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:07 pm

Many and varied examples. First one that comes to mind with great remorse and cries for forgiveness, mercy and reconciliation.

question 1. To agree with and even join in the conversation of vilifying and assassinating the character of someone who had left BCF, simply because they had left, not because of any factual information as to what they may have actually done wrong. Invariably the gossip of xCF congregants was enough to turn these things into widely held belief on the person who had left.

question 2. Consciously chose to not challenge gossip but rather it was a more comfortable position to just believe the gossiping and assassination (lies) about peoples character.

I'm no psychological expert, but perhaps the shunning is just our nervous/guilt ridden response or coping mechanism to not knowing how to approach a person (who left or got squeezed out of BCF who we were once "friends" with for 20 years) when we then bump into them in the shopping centre when we know we have privately assassinated their character or not defended them. I agree Gillie - great post. Thanks for sharing.

robocop
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by robocop » Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:37 pm

• What situations were you subjected to in BCF / MCF etc, where you behaved against your conscience?
Two situations which I recall most vividly, which I REFUSED to act against my conscience: Firstly, we were asked/told to confess to a certain Elder why we had refused to accept his FATHERHOOD. When most of the congregation did not act after the first supplications, we were given a stern warning that we were being DISOBEDIENT. I still refused to act, as I thought it was ridiculous and had no reference to me.

The second instance was when a direction was given at Home Group meeting that we were to go home and write down our whole story of everything that had happened to us right from childhood. I thought at the time it was a most outrageous request because it smacked of PSYCHOLOGY, and I remember thinking, "I did not join the Church to be PSYCHOANALYSED", so I refused to do this. As I recall many years later, that those who had submitted a case history, had it used against them, because the elders filed all this information into their little "FIXIT" filing cabinet.

surprisedbyjoy
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by surprisedbyjoy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:52 am

When against our better judgement and convictions we chose to believe what the RFI originators of truth dream up as doctrine. A classic example that was the final straw for me was the one in recent years on covenant families / covenant kids which is asserting that a child born in a covenant home (assumed xCF since xCF is the only group who writes such "belief") is heaven bound if they die but the child next to them in the maternity ward who is not a covenant kid (assumed non-xCF since I've not heard another group assert such doctrine) and we assume does not yet have the ability to hear and chose God's life, may suddenly die and are off to damnation. I've heard one preacher state it as clearly as that from the platform...YEP!

When this doctrine was first presented it sent a few small shock waves through congregants and some who questioned it got answers that were very disturbing. Many chose to "believe" (or at least not question) it against better judgement and convictions but could not explain why the doctrine did not line up with a God and Father whose attributes we learned at Sunday School as merciful, gracious, slow to anger and abounding in love.

I think the point you raise Gillie is an excellent one because I reflect back where I chose to not be forced to comply in thought and belief and this became the threshold and death knell of our journey out the door, either willingly and quietly or squeezed out with some degree of fuss to our convictions. This is not an easy journey and does take courage however small or large the associated relational collateral damage. The point is though, that when we comply, we are at no point being led by the conviction of the Holy Spirit (if you believe in that mechanism) or simply the virtues of mercy, compassion and empathy. WE ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE LED BY FEAR. WE BECOME HOSTAGES OF FEAR!
Deut 1:17 'You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God's The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.'
Sorry to be quoting scripture for those who don't like it. The heart of this bible verse should however strike a chord with all humanity. I share it simply because I hope it helps (as it does with me) with this concept of cognitive dissonance and forced compliance behaviour at the threshold of our own freedom to discern without judgement or fear. I understand (as best I can) and empathise with many whose circumstance is a lot more complex and hurtful.

Paul Kovaks
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by Paul Kovaks » Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:05 am

Yes, I realized somewhere along the years that MCF was all about PSYCHING us out through essentially natural means rather than believing all good things about us and relegating the obvious bad ones to the shelf to be worked on. Instead every GOOD THING was assumed to somehow be an idol to be laid down.

It wasn't hard for them to find potential idols. But when they did they had to play a game of bluff. Did they think we would be prepared to give up the things we loved? So they had to judge HOW MUCH we were ENTANGLED in MCF thru family or devotion etc and to what extent we would argue a point: how submissive were we? In our case we had family members there, our kids were baptised there and our friends were all there. And we were humble, trusting, somewhat lacking in confidence people.

SO that meant that WE GOT THE FULL BRUNT. We were asked to sacrifice ALL our dreams and plans and fantastic opportunities in career, business, life, servitude and ministry. Everything. Because they knew they could get away with it. Others either because of lack of initiative OR because they were deemed not compliant enough WERE NOT ASKED such disgusting questions (at threat of loss of salvation I must remind you).

I found out later that not one other member of MCF was asked such outrageous questions (unless they kept it all secret like me even after I asked them). It was my combination of academic achievement, career/business initiative, perceived inadequacies, trustingness and lack of fight that enabled them to destroy my life over a period of 25 years until we came to our senses last year.

I fantasize about walking out of their DISGUSTING PSYCHING-OUT sessions in the 1993-2010 period. Imagine them saying (as they did): 'No one can start a business unless an elder asks them to'. Imagine me walking out, NEVER to return, saying 'Oh Yeah ,. . watch this . . '. I'm enjoying just typing it! But instead I stayed for another 20 years of this!

There's even one where I want to actually punch the elder's face in because he deserved it: "Look" (pointing his two henchmen towards me as I was crying as they were standing over me): "That's a man with blocked goals".

David Bonham, you are a piece of work. If only you knew what you deserved. You destroyed my life. And with such enthusiasm and inconsideration.

I dream of it. I literally beg the Lord to be sent back in time.

I know that's not the way forward.

But I can't ever respect David Bonham again. Not even as someone 'trying to do the right thing'. Because he has conveniently forgotten all those things he said to me despite their outrageousness and destructive impact on my life. All he says is 'I'm sorry I didn't always get things right'. He refuses to admit to the MCF presbytery that he did those things to me.

The MCF presbytery denies it all occurred and put all the blame on me.

I do confess that David Bonham was simply trying to do Vic's word on me and so I ultimately blame Vic and his crew up in BCF for the destruction of my life through their twistings of Scripture and imbalanced selections of the Word. MCf and BCF have been the most destructive, bullying influence on my life.

Despite the beautiful JP and thoroughly sensible teachings on the Body of Christ, I wish I had never met one of these men.

You must understand, I loved inventing and technology and they even banned me from 'thinking about technology' let alone actually going into business or doing my ESSENTIAL postdoc internship (despite bosses telling me I HAD to do it). I've been in and out of proper employment for the last 20 years because of them after a distinguished early career. They forced me to stay 5 years longer at a dead-end job I hated. They refused to look at my prototypes. They expressed shock when I brought a prototype in once. They insisted all my open opportunities were tricks of the devil. And always at threat of eternal damnation if I do it.

And then Laurie Holland (ON THE PRESBYTERY) grabbed my arm and told me: 'You can't do it Paul, there's a way that seems right and it leads to death'. And the current presbytery STILL denies it all despite never bringing in my witnesses!

They say 'unless it is sexual abuse, we don't want to know about it'.

Yes, MCF violates even the compassion of the Old Testament as quoted above:
Deut 1:17 'You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God's The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.'
They've destroyed every facet of my life for 25 years and washed their hands of myself and my family.

Thanomere84
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by Thanomere84 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:38 pm

Trust me, Paul Kovaks... anyone who is earnest in his/her tries to please Vic Hall will have no qualms about ripping up formerly close friends or even family just to show 'the divine messenger' that he/she is ready to 'submit to the lampstand administration'.

Let me show you a few examples:
David Falk himself (sorry David, I know you're out of there now but you did do what you did to me, and history cannot be altered): He used to encourage me, teach me, push me on and exhort me. The moment I fell out of Vic's favour he ripped into me, tore me to shreds and basically conveyed a brutal message - 'YOU HAVE FALLEN, AND YOU!!! ARE!!! DOOMED!!!'

Jimmy Liew, the Kuala Lumpur Christian Chapel pastor: My longtime friend, watched me grow up, a man I treated like an uncle. Before my downfall, wild horses could never have dragged him into saying one negative thing about me. After my downfall... I always felt like I was an ignorant child or unsubmissive preteen in his presence, as he continually belittled me. Though he did not use shouting or brutality, he made it clear via his gentle yet demeaning words that in his eyes, I was no longer a respectable person - just a loud-mouthed, bratty and un-grown-up man.

Chan Sum Mee, my very own uncle and a full-timer in Ipoh Christian Chapel: My uncle. The one who was closest to me. The one who worked with me in church for many years and whom I could relate the most to. All it took was just Vic's opinion that I had been rebellious... and he changed from a benevolent uncle into a ruthless abuser. He took every opportunity to vent his anger on me, blaming my rebelliousness for causing him to 'have to shoulder the burden of leading the church alone'. Of course, it never dawned on him that he could've just rejected Vic and exited RFI, and worked with me to bring better days to the church. Even when I met him in 2016 just to make a final reconciliation before conclusively joining my new church's membership, he refused to shake my hand and every word he spoke was laced with suspicion and displeasure.

The children in my old church, Ipoh Christian Chapel: Being a Sunday School teacher and a person who is very fond of children, I always had children coming up to me every Sunday. Their parents viewed me as a good example, and often asked me to teach their children how to live a good God-centred and Bible-centred life. Just one week after Vic threw me down and stomped on me, ALL the children avoided me like the plague, while their parents mysteriously stopped talking to me. Only one child still remained close to me - a good cousin of mine. When I think of his innocent smile today, it still brings a lump to my throat.

The workers in Ipoh Christian Chapel: Before my downfall, they were encouraging, supportive and kind individuals. After my downfall, the gossip, slander and blatant hate they spread about me could put any Hollywood tabloid magazine to shame.

There are so many more I could list... but that could cover a book in itself.

What I need to say, Paul Kovaks, is this - when Vic Hall orders his 'faithful' to go after you, know that said 'faithful' will hesitate at NOTHING, and I do mean NOTHING AT ALL, to ruin your life. Past kindnesses, rapports, friendships, closeness, trust... it will all go out the window and right into the trash once Vic has decided you need 'discipline' and appoints one of his 'disciples' to mete out said 'discipline'.

However, here at Streetcar, is where we can share our stories, and find recovery from the brutality and the abuse we've suffered. I pray your recovery will be swift and that joy may return to your soul again - as it has mine.

Gillie
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by Gillie » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Thank you to all who have shared so honestly here in this particular topic. The heartfelt agony expressed here is real and true and we all bear witness together, of what these men are capable of when they are led by a tyrant. Sharing what we have lived through is so painful and retelling it on a public forum is not easy at all. So, thank you to all and I hope some readers within the RFI will take heed of our warnings.

You may not be a target yet, but NO ONE IS SAFE! Murray Wylie should be a warning to everyone that one day the axe may fall on you.

When I was prevented from attending church and my discipline was home detention, most people adhered to the elders instructions and shunned me. Only one person came to visit me at that time and I cannot tell you how important that visit was for me. That particular person didn't ask for permission, they just responded with compassion! Interestingly, later that person was expelled and has since died.

We are not dealing with something simple here. This is very complex abuse and as such, anything we can share or bear witness to, is standing against such evil. We can only pray it reached someone who needs to hear our heartfelt cries.

eagles
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Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour

Post by eagles » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:03 pm

Re: Forced Compliance Behaviour
Post by Gillie » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:38 pm

When I was prevented from attending church and my discipline was home detention, most people adhered to the elders instructions and shunned me. Only one person came to visit me at that time and I cannot tell you how important that visit was for me. That particular person didn't ask for permission, they just responded with compassion! Interestingly, later that person was expelled and has since died.

Gille, yes. The sad part is that it does not happen only in specific congregations; hatchet-men are to be found in many organisations. When it happens with elderly people ("seniors" and older) it does actually have a legal label. It is called "elder abuse", a title created by the United Nations, who promoted maybe three weeks ago around Australia and in some other countries "Elder Abuse Week"

A few people here are aware that the organisation which owns several retirement villages (of which the one in which I live is part) is run by a man who was headhunted from Sydney as an expert at rebuilding companies to make money. He vocally identifies as often as he can as a Christian. The organisation had got into trouble financially ten years ago, and the original CEO walked away - we believe this was because the board refused to listen to wise counsel. The organisation had been an outreach of a local church, which disassociated from them completely (as far as sponsorship is concerned) after the company re-established itself.

This is a different organisation from the one that "Four Corners" identified a couple of weeks ago.

The last part of Gillie's post reminded me of something which happened in our village. One of the maintenance men was suddenly not seen. I talked to him quite often and was puzzled, even concerned.

His wife answered his mobile phone and said he had had not one but two strokes. That was the only information I could gain... total silence (like shunning) so I put on my sleuth hat and talked to the appropriate hospital and discovered he was there. They asked him if I could visit and his eyes lit up (so I was told). Yes we visited a couple of times. The only other visits he had from the organisation was one of the gardeners. Then all of a sudden after visiting while his wife daughter and large loving dog were there(!) I was told he had been discharged. They had sold their house to move interstate when this happened, so I lost contact.

This is not the same as in a congregation where "Forced Compliance" happens, but looks very similar from outside. Sad. As someone mentioned on another thread, the MO is the same, eliminate close friendships; the person no longer exists, do they?.

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