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Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:36 am
by surprisedbyjoy
A person who asks, ‘Who will ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)’, is seeking an alternative to the pathway of sonship. They want a clergy-style leader to ‘ascend into heaven’ on their behalf and bring Christ down to them through doctrinal prescription or patriarchy. In return for their allegiance to the leader and their ministry, the believer assumes that they will be acceptable to God. Their loyalty to the leader becomes a substitute for their own accountability to live as a son of God and to be joined to the fellowship of the Father and the Son.

The outcome of receiving, believing and obeying the word of God should be accountable living. A son of God who lives by the proceeding word that is proclaimed by graced messengers will be illuminated regarding the implications of the word for their life. Furthermore, they will be committed to a fellowship in one Spirit with the Lord and their brethren. Only the word that proceeds as light from a functioning presbytery is able to join a believer to the fellowship of the Father and the Son. The word of God that brings illumination does not proceed from independent leadership figures.

A person who asks, ‘Who will descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)’, is seeking to be delivered from their suffering, from their weakness, and from their condemnation, through a miraculous ministry of the Spirit of God. It is clear that they have no faith for participation in the sufferings of Christ. They do not understand that the Spirit has been given to them to help them to join the travail of Christ, through which they are brought to glory as a son of God. In contrast to this, a son of God who is continually receiving illumination from the word that is preached to them, will be content in every circumstance of life.

Is it just me who is confused here or is my critical thinking getting me into trouble again?

FIRST PARAGRAPH - Firstly most normal Christians and followers of The Way in Jesus Christ are not concerning themselves with whether we are going up or going down. What an amazing title to a devotional reflection. Anyway, so if I go to an RFI church am I not encouraged to respect, heed and obey the messenger, presumably the one bringing the "message" at church, or perhaps broadening this to the esteemed ones who seem to have the say around the place? True? .... yes I believe so.
But now there's some concern for the poor "minor", (the one who's not reached messenger status but just simply aspiring to the humble call to be a son) who is asked to respect, heed and obey his "clergyman/messenger" when he strangely now shows allegiance to the old boys ministry club making it some false formula to be acceptable to God. WHAT SORT OF A CONFUSING LANGUAGE IS BEING SPOKEN HERE!!!
SECOND PARAGRAPH - WARNING IMMEDIATE CONTRADICTION AND CONFUSION!! No one is denying the connection between a relationship with God and His word and finding the joy, peace and healing of an accountable life. But hang on are we now hearing a confusing reinforcement of the thing that was just attempted to be dismantled in the first paragraph?...i.e. loyalty to leaders/clergy/messengers "A son of God who lives by the proceeding word that is proclaimed by graced messengers will be illuminated regarding the implications of the word for their life.... AND AGAIN Only the word that proceeds as light from a functioning presbytery is able to join a believer to the fellowship of the Father and the Son . Now them is fightin' words....ONLY. Also note the new adjective in front of the word "messengers".... yes it's "graced" messengers now. So the humble son is now meant to know how to discern between the "graced" ones and the "ungraced" ones. AH COME ON THAT'S JUST INCREDIBLE!!
THIRD PARAGRAPH - honestly I couldn't bring myself to continue reading!!!

Come on please RFI originators or truth give it a break please, please, please. AND PLEASE those of you who listen to this abusive mind controlling stuff WAKE UP AND DISCERN AND CHALLENGE THE SPIRIT THAT IS BEHIND THIS STUFF.

DISCLAIMER PLEASE ADMINISTRATOR. My post is not attempting to hurt or insult anyone. I apologise if I have. If I have come across this way then please tell me so, but I am so sad and so grieved for the fact that these devotional writings really are very confusing and I fear for what they are doing to the minds of the good and faithful folks who read them and attempt to submit to the process of digesting them. All I ask is to plead with these good folks to take a step back and try and see what is being said in light of the modern history of RFI.

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:23 pm
by Paul Kovaks
Yep, I picked up on that this week too . .

ONLY a word from a functioning presbytery! Despite the Apostle Paul pointing out that the word has power even from misguided teachers (Phil 1:12-18)! Paul says: WHAT DOES IT (THE MOTIVATION) MATTER!

Of course we would like to have soundly motivated preachers but the gospel is already established in the Scriptures. We don't need to invent anything new like RFI insists. We have the gospel already.

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:17 pm
by eagles
Hello surprisedbyjoy,

I'm not familiar with what I think you are referring to.

It reminds me of "Jacob's Ladder" in the OT and is perhaps current RFI teaching, many changes and years after I left what were called "Vision One" teachings then which seemed less "way out" back then!

"Clergy" is an interesting word. I wonder if you have ever studied an era called "The Reformation"? You may find it useful.

My understanding of clergy is someone that a whole congregation has prayerfully selected (unanimously) after examining where the candidate of choice indicates where they stand on a raft of choices of their "policy" to see who God actually wishes will lead their congregation, rather than a situation where all the congregants are "told" by a small core group - or even worse a single external controlling guru does it - who is being appointed.

I have experienced both, with predictable results, sadly. The world is full of potential controllers.

Other than that, I'm not sure how to answer your question.

I hope that I have been helpful :)

Lord bless you as you wrestle with this

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:23 am
by Paul Kovaks
It's current RFI teaching.

Ascending and descending are, respectively, giving (praising, laying down etc) and receiving (of word or prophecies or direction).
Referred to in body ministry time (spiritual songs & gifts of the spirit during Sunday communion).

Largely makes sense.
But how necessary?

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:20 pm
by surprisedbyjoy

The italicised part at the top of the post is taken directly from the RFI devotional guide called Restoring My Soul (title doesn't tend to match the content) on Monday 22 May 2017. If we were to attempt to give it an author I believe it's typically cut and pasted from the Hall et al writings since I believe they do lack the resources for a truly critical-thinking type devotional writer. I did not raise the question "Who will ascend or descend?" the RFI writer did!!!

The non-italicised part is my response. The point of my post was simply to highlight that the writing is at best confusing and at worst spiritual abuse. And I do fear this is a case of the WORST. The RFI messenger doctrine of "those who cannot be questioned but WE (royal variety) reserve the right to be confusing and contradictory at all times (reason it changes so much is because it's "PRESENT TRUTH") has hit new heights of abuse and needs to have the spotlight put on it. This post was an attempt to do this.

Simply, my concern is that this text on 22 May is abusing the reader and has a very obvious contradiction which perhaps those blinded by the RFI mechanism may not be able to see while they have their coffee and toast as good little loyal sons daily devoted to digesting the RFI "word".

1. So according to RFI, apparently an aspiring son can be guilty of "bringing Christ down" (whatever that means - assumed negative) when they show loyalty to a clergy style independent leader messenger with the implication that such a one is an "ungraced" type (my assumptions not theirs since later text suggests there are "graced" ones). What they don't say is that history tells that an aspiring son who does not show loyalty to ANY RFI clergyman gets squeezed to the edge, shunned and eventually pushed out the door. What they don't say is that an aspiring son who gets a smell for an "ungraced" or abusive messenger and comes to them humbly and politely to question their mode, doctrine or MESSAGE has their character assassinated both privately and publically. What they don't say is that following this assassination when they (taking much courage) try to raise their concerns for the effect of the "ungraced" messenger in their congregation with the caring and overseeing group called a "functioning presbytery", they are then further assassinated by a cowardly pack mentality. And finally what they don't say is that if that aspiring son then in a last ditch effort suggests that the very mechanism which they conveniently call "presbytery" may be flawed then that poor son should now be hearing his death knell (top points for trying though).I have heard many accounts of this mechanism and experienced it myself first hand many times. You either kiss their feet and esteem them as great ones or you pay the price. The whole place lives and breathes clergy/leader/messenger esteem and loyalty as a means of survival. Now assuming that the writer of these devotions is an RFI leader sitting within the so-say safe and "watch each others back" confines of an RFI presbytery then we can only assume that the whole RFI presbytery holds this view, that an aspiring son must be discerning enough to see that their loyalty to independent ungraced clergy is not a good thing! Oh the irony!!

2. But then the writer then abuses the good conscience of the aspiring son diligently reading and digesting his RFI devotions and says that THEY (yes the mild mannered minor - the aspiring son) need to know how to then discern who they are loyal to/listen to/obey/submit to since there are RFI messengers who are graced and these are the ones who need to be followed and obeyed in order to be enlightened and find fellowship with the Father and the Son (whilst also discerning who are the ungraced ones who simply demand service and loyalty)

Also amongst all of these concerns, the way this stuff is written this is clearly also a case of WE and THEY!!!! (the great and the not so great). Well Jesus did teach on this didn't He!!

Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time eagles but I AM UTTERLY DISGUSTED BY THESE WRITINGS. I am DISGUESTED that this is all about the accountability of the minor while those touching the tithe, paid leaders and self proclaimed messengers dish out both the abuse and a very poorly rationalised alibi for why they have such a SICK AND ABUSIVE CULTURE among them. I am hearing no contrition in these writings given the RFI history. Rather just more abuse dished out to the aspiring sons in this very SICK CULTURE (CULT) called RFI/Christian Fellowships. I believe RFI history demonstrates my point eagles. History in places like Melbourne, Sydney, Stanthorpe, Brisbane, Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast (I'm certain this is just to name a few prominent cases). When will this end? Will it just re-emerge in a third generation? I fear it will since these ones are showing the clear signs of being groomed by these things. I so so so so pray that the poor folks being spiritually abused and taken captive by this cruel practice of control and fear can see what's happening to them.

I hope that makes more sense for you now eagles and I would likewise appreciate your checking of my comment since I can tend to be a bit sensitive on this very subject of control and abuse having left it's clutches. I would welcome anyone's comment if I am overstating. Coming out of the RFI Cult I would be genuinely soothed to have my view questioned or challenged since I do genuinely acknowledge that their is a fair amount of "de-programming" still needed.

The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in love. May the Lord bless and keep all!

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:30 am
by surprisedbyjoy
Of course we would like to have soundly motivated preachers but the gospel is already established in the Scriptures. We don't need to invent anything new like RFI insists. We have the gospel already.
I agree Paul, we all love the simple, pure and undefiled gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. A lot of teachers and pastors in the wider (ie non RFI) church seem to do a good job on interpreting and proclaiming this to Christ's followers every Sunday with no real personal "barrow" being pushed. We all can simply read, study and interpret this for ourselves also. Many of us are now so thankful that the RFI coloured glasses are off and we can see His glorious gospel, His unmerited favour and His indescribable gift (2 Cor 9:15).

The trouble is the grooming and conditioning that the originators and writers of this stuff seem to take no accountability for. So we are all getting concerned that this RFI thing is either an active grooming or just JUST BLIND. To write or to open ones mouth to speak to a faithful group of willing followers and servers should not be something taken lightly. The implications of every word and emphasis should be carefully considered before attempting. The trouble is that the expectation is that the countless books and these devotional writings are the daily "feed" for the RFI elder worshippers. The passive tone of this stuff in its difficult clunky language has a numbing and dumbing effect away from the true gospel. The more active tone of it is classically submit and obey, clergy/laity or us & them or elder worship. It does not have the tone of a humble attempt at interpretation. It has little or no exegesis/hermeneutic. It stinks of classic eisegesis with a hidden determination to make a very clear and self interested point. It is also as eagles alluded to from Galatians having something of another gospel feel to it.

I fear that it may be as the Apostle Paul said "who has bewitched you" (Gal 3:1)

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:07 am
by eagles
Thank you surprisedby joy, that was helpful, although it does seem a bit of what my dear departed mother would have described as "convoluted"!

I'm rather glad I stopped attending before it got so complicated!

I might write a note about a quotation ascribed in error to a middle-ages theologian (maybe earlier) called (Saint) Augustine of Hippo who I believe.

Unless there is a problem on this *new* forum with discussing anything remotely connected with *real* scriptural teachings, that it.

I believe that this topic provides an ideal direct answer to every quack guru who wants to peddle his own controlling thoughts among congregants who have been hoodwinked. I would be interested to know what you guys think - I was going to discuss this view in the previous version of this Bulletin Board.

You may find pages I've saved on-line some years ago as a sort of "help desk" when I used to be involved with the management of a couple of chatrooms on Internet Relay Chat (aka IRC). This directory listing has quite a number of saved references, and I point you to this part of that directory...

This Wikipedia page is helpful in putting the topic in context, and isn't life needed to be in context always? ... Unitas.htm

This teaching page I personally find of greater interest, but if you are not keen on delving into "why", that's fine. Pressure has no place in introducing anyone to Christ's Gospel, after all. ... rkRoss.htm

Whoever actually made the statement is not as important as the basic logic that he used, when he said (after translating it into modern English from the Latin used by scholars back then), in my paraphrase...
  • In all things essential, Unity by all believers...

    In all things non-essential, liberty .... so sorry about leaving out this SO important word!!!

    In all things. Charity, in other words in Brotherly Love!!
The last time I used it was in a text message towards a man who had spent years in a pentecostal church and looked to me for support of his criticisms, plaguing me with comments about how sinful (in his mind) a lady was who attended the same liturgical church as he and I attended!

Thank you again for your answer, and I hope this short sharp and snappy post is useful :D

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:51 am
by surprisedbyjoy
Thanks Eagles

If the "convoluted" is me then please forgive me. The road out of there has been rough but the de-programming is going well I think.
I suspect it's possibly the RFI speak you're referring to....if so I do tend to agree. If you were to ask someone still there if they actually read, digest or understand the stuff being fed down to them, I don't think there would be any honest or enthusiastic YES's to be heard. I think most are just happy thinking they have "THE WORD" (and a better word than most) even though it seems to not be bringing life. That in itself tells the story for me.

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:12 pm
by Thanomere84
I absolutely agree with you, surprisedbyjoy.
surprisedbyjoy wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:51 am
I think most are just happy thinking they have "THE WORD" (and a better word than most) even though it seems to not be bringing life. That in itself tells the story for me.
In my days when I still was a devoted slave of the RFI network, I felt that the so-called 'present truth' proclaimed there seemed to smack of strict doctrine, all just rules, principles, regulations and laws. There seemed to be little life and even less edification brought about by such a 'word'. Once I escaped from there, though - the refreshing discourse of REAL Word in my new church, brought in love and grace by the Holy Spirit, gave me renewed hope and rejuvenated my exhausted and broken self.

I hope the xCFians and the rest of the RFI people will wake up and see - the only reason RFI and the xCFs survive is that they tout their convoluted and dogmatic doctrine as 'present truth' that is supposedly better than what any other church could offer.

Speaking of which - on a totally unrelated topic, I've managed to dig out what little I saved from the old Streetcar and repost it here. Does anyone still have records of the Gladys Barlow thread and other such long-running topics of conversation? Those attracted much attention even from the RFI crowd. If we could, putting those up here again would definitely be very informative for anyone who still wishes to see the real truth rather than be content with RFI's pulling the wool over their eyes.

Re: Who will ascend and descend?

Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:35 pm
by eagles
I do remember the expression "The Present Truth" and it puzzled me how there could be degrees of truth, tied to calendar dates, perhaps.

As an engineer, writing construction or anufacturing specifications on one hand - and checking work done against other specifications, we just rejected work that failed to meet spec, or even worse, which failed to meet legal requirements imposed by acts of parliament or the regulations carefully annexed to them for safety reasons.

There is either "Truth" or "Untruth" (aka "Lies", actually) in that situation. But some people would regard that as being "legalistic" probably.

Have to go, will be back later.Love ya all ;)