Hi friends,
I am a newly departed former lifelong member of BCF. For a long time now, and still even after my leaving I have tried to make sense of the idea that is so pushed within the xCF churches of 'planting'. As a BCFer you are "planted" here, either through being born into the church or by other means. As I was leaving, friends and family would continually tell me "but this is where you are planted" and "you're taking yourself away from where you're planted" etc.
I have tried to ask people "where does the bible speak on planting?", but would never get straight answers. I see it now as a form of manipulation used within the church to keep people stuck where they are.
But my question is, is there any spiritual/christian truth to the idea of planting? Does God plant us in certain places? I ask now because I'm feeling quite lost and wondering if there is a place that God has for me.
The theology of 'planting'
Re: The theology of 'planting'
Hello guest,
Firstly, I can't say that I know how you feel, but I do know what it feels like to be a lifelong attendee of xCF and then have to go through the pain of leaving BCF. It's difficult, and I'm praying for you.
The BCF theology that says you need to stay where God 'planted' you never made sense to me. The theology doesn't leave much room for being led by God or having faith. Rather, it focuses on your disobedience if you don't stay where ‘God intentionally planted you’. But what if God calls you to go somewhere else or do something else? Isn't that what many of the heroes of faith did? What about the instructions Jesus gave at the great commission? Matt 28.
When I left, there was no doubt that the leadership group was dishonest, and there was no way their disposition was going to change. So when the question of planting came up in my mind, my only thought was, "It can't be here; I'd have to live a lie". To stay would have meant turning a blind eye to things I knew were dishonest.
I wish I had a good practical and theological answer to your question, but I don't. Honestly, I'm not sure I found a church I truly 'fit' in. But I know this for sure: I'm planted in the body of Christ. It's His Church that I'm part of, not a denomination. And by God's grace, I'm more useful and more fruitful than I have ever been before.
Hope that helps. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't make sense to you. I'm sure others on the forum can provide more helpful comments.
Firstly, I can't say that I know how you feel, but I do know what it feels like to be a lifelong attendee of xCF and then have to go through the pain of leaving BCF. It's difficult, and I'm praying for you.
The BCF theology that says you need to stay where God 'planted' you never made sense to me. The theology doesn't leave much room for being led by God or having faith. Rather, it focuses on your disobedience if you don't stay where ‘God intentionally planted you’. But what if God calls you to go somewhere else or do something else? Isn't that what many of the heroes of faith did? What about the instructions Jesus gave at the great commission? Matt 28.
When I left, there was no doubt that the leadership group was dishonest, and there was no way their disposition was going to change. So when the question of planting came up in my mind, my only thought was, "It can't be here; I'd have to live a lie". To stay would have meant turning a blind eye to things I knew were dishonest.
I wish I had a good practical and theological answer to your question, but I don't. Honestly, I'm not sure I found a church I truly 'fit' in. But I know this for sure: I'm planted in the body of Christ. It's His Church that I'm part of, not a denomination. And by God's grace, I'm more useful and more fruitful than I have ever been before.
Hope that helps. Feel free to ignore if it doesn't make sense to you. I'm sure others on the forum can provide more helpful comments.
Re: The theology of 'planting'
Hello guest 1 and welcome!
Guest 2 I loved your comments and your care.
I had that line about being planted at BCF used on me too.
I googled it, looked in the concordance and could find no biblical reference.
“ Those that be planted in the house of the Lord…” in Psalm 92 cannot mean a particular NT church! As Christ followers I agree with guest2 that we are in the body of Christ.
I agree that it’s a manipulative tool used not only by the CFs but I’ve seen it used also by all high demand churches.
Apart from those born into the church, all those who were Christians before they joined, came out of other churches!
Were they not “planted” there?!!
I do feel that I was led by the spirit to the church I am now - but I checked it out thru reading their blogs.
I tried a couple of others but couldn’t agree with their theology.
I don’t believe I would necessarily feel the same walking into every church of the denomination I’ve landed in, but this particular church has been a refuge for the past months.
It continues to be a “culture shock” as it’s so different from BCF. The reason I kept going back was the genuine care, humility and understanding of the priest that I connected with, as well as the lack of weaponising of scripture.
BCF is not the same church I joined in my youth.
It has gotten more and more exclusive as Vic Hall manifests more and more control over peoples minds.
Ten years ago he told me that “God was tipping people out of the church” - at a time when many families were leaving.
Of course a narcissist would say that!
I’m glad God “tipped” me out!!
I very much feel that I had to leave in order to follow Jesus and be obedient to his call.
Please keep reaching out, you have found a safe place here where people will genuinely care and pray as you’ve already seen from the previous reply.
Xx Lillith
Guest 2 I loved your comments and your care.
I had that line about being planted at BCF used on me too.
I googled it, looked in the concordance and could find no biblical reference.
“ Those that be planted in the house of the Lord…” in Psalm 92 cannot mean a particular NT church! As Christ followers I agree with guest2 that we are in the body of Christ.
I agree that it’s a manipulative tool used not only by the CFs but I’ve seen it used also by all high demand churches.
Apart from those born into the church, all those who were Christians before they joined, came out of other churches!
Were they not “planted” there?!!
I do feel that I was led by the spirit to the church I am now - but I checked it out thru reading their blogs.
I tried a couple of others but couldn’t agree with their theology.
I don’t believe I would necessarily feel the same walking into every church of the denomination I’ve landed in, but this particular church has been a refuge for the past months.
It continues to be a “culture shock” as it’s so different from BCF. The reason I kept going back was the genuine care, humility and understanding of the priest that I connected with, as well as the lack of weaponising of scripture.
BCF is not the same church I joined in my youth.
It has gotten more and more exclusive as Vic Hall manifests more and more control over peoples minds.
Ten years ago he told me that “God was tipping people out of the church” - at a time when many families were leaving.
Of course a narcissist would say that!
I’m glad God “tipped” me out!!
I very much feel that I had to leave in order to follow Jesus and be obedient to his call.
Please keep reaching out, you have found a safe place here where people will genuinely care and pray as you’ve already seen from the previous reply.
Xx Lillith
Re: The theology of 'planting'
Thank you so much for raising this issue, guest. And thanks to the others for your comments.
Firstly, I believe the whole "planted" agenda could be based on some OT scriptures that talk about the righteous being like trees planted by a river, e.g. Psalm 1:3.
I probably have more questions than answers regarding xCF's practical implementation of their "planting" theory, but when looking for scriptural precedents, I've found plenty of evidence to suggest that leaving one's home, whether a church or a family, is more likely how God works in a person's life.
A good New Testament example---and ironically probably BCF's best argument in favour of planting---is that of Onesimus, in the letter to Philemon.
As a second generation xCFer dealing with the issue of "being planted", I often pondered the question, "Where did the first generation come from?" They obviously all came from other churches or denominations, so why weren't they told to go back to where they were originally "planted"? The logic breaks down pretty quickly when you start to think about it.
Planting at BCF is a one way street. It's hard enough to move to another xCF centre let alone a different denomination.
Thanks again guest for opening up this important conversation.
Firstly, I believe the whole "planted" agenda could be based on some OT scriptures that talk about the righteous being like trees planted by a river, e.g. Psalm 1:3.
Obviously this is poetic literature encouraging believers to meditate on God's Word and avoid ungodliness, so I think it's a bit of a stretch to apply it literally to a modern, geographically constrained, church context.Psalms 1:1-3 NKJV
[1] Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful; [2] But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night. [3] He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper.
https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.1.1.NKJV
I probably have more questions than answers regarding xCF's practical implementation of their "planting" theory, but when looking for scriptural precedents, I've found plenty of evidence to suggest that leaving one's home, whether a church or a family, is more likely how God works in a person's life.
A good New Testament example---and ironically probably BCF's best argument in favour of planting---is that of Onesimus, in the letter to Philemon.
To summarise [with predicted xCF reactions in brackets]:Philemon 1:8-16 NKJV
[8] Therefore, though I might be very bold in Christ to command you what is fitting, [9] yet for love’s sake I rather appeal to you—being such a one as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ— [10] I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten while in my chains, [11] who once was unprofitable to you, but now is profitable to you and to me. [12] I am sending him back. You therefore receive him, that is, my own heart, [13] whom I wished to keep with me, that on your behalf he might minister to me in my chains for the gospel. [14] But without your consent I wanted to do nothing, that your good deed might not be by compulsion, as it were, but voluntary. [15] For perhaps he departed for a while for this purpose, that you might receive him forever, [16] no longer as a slave but more than a slave—a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.
https://bible.com/bible/114/phm.1.8.NKJV
- The apostle Paul sends a runaway slave, Onesimus, back to his master, Philemon. [xCF =
]
- In his accompanying letter, Paul tells Philemon that he would have preferred to keep Onesimus as a helper in his ministry, and suggests that it was actually beneficial for Onesimus to leave for a time. [xCF =
]
- Most importantly, Paul sends Onesimus back, not as a slave but as a brother. [xCF =
]
As a second generation xCFer dealing with the issue of "being planted", I often pondered the question, "Where did the first generation come from?" They obviously all came from other churches or denominations, so why weren't they told to go back to where they were originally "planted"? The logic breaks down pretty quickly when you start to think about it.
Planting at BCF is a one way street. It's hard enough to move to another xCF centre let alone a different denomination.
Thanks again guest for opening up this important conversation.
Re: The theology of 'planting'
But wait, there's more...Lillith wrote: ↑Sat Dec 02, 2023 3:19 am
I had that line about being planted at BCF used on me too.
I googled it, looked in the concordance and could find no biblical reference.
“ Those that be planted in the house of the Lord…” in Psalm 92 cannot mean a particular NT church! As Christ followers I agree with guest2 that we are in the body of Christ.
I agree that it’s a manipulative tool used not only by the CFs but I’ve seen it used also by all high demand churches.
Clearly, they missed the part where we're all supposed to move to Lebanon.Psalms 92:12-15 NKJV
[12] The righteous shall flourish like a palm tree, He shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. [13] Those who are planted in the house of the Lord Shall flourish in the courts of our God.
https://bible.com/bible/114/psa.92.12.NKJV
Now I'm thinking I need to do a study on "the house of the Lord" to find out where it really is.
Re: The theology of 'planting'
Besides the planting theology, another persuasive argument I've heard directed towards an exiting member is, "These are your songs," referring to the literal choruses that they sing at xCF.
My answer: "I'm sorry, sir. Since they axed the Wylie and Scripture In Song repertoire of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, these are no longer my songs."
My answer: "I'm sorry, sir. Since they axed the Wylie and Scripture In Song repertoire of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, these are no longer my songs."
Re: The theology of 'planting'
This guy/girl gets it!
I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that dissonance. Pray that more people pick this up and act courageously on their convictions.
Re: The theology of 'planting'
Ray Jackson Sr stated he received 'a word' from the Lord about being planted in New Zealand, yet left for Australia a year later. Yes indeed, another xcf tactic to 'plant' a seed of guilt and doubt into the people who pay their tithes so Vic and his cronies can (continue to) enjoy their lavish lifestyle. Like RJ Sr, Vic has picked up many tricks over the years.
Re: The theology of 'planting'
hi Guest.
This is a book I read when I first got out of CF. Its the Journey of the author coming from a conservative baptist church in the bible blet of America to a much more loving view of God, His word and His world. She explores the different Christian traditions and takes aspects from all of them that she appreciates. I would recommended this to everyone grappling with their faith.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/22574709
On a more personal note. Like Lilith I have found myself drawn into the Anglican Church. When I first met the priest he heard my story and was also upfront with me. His words were something to the effect of "I can help you spiritually but there is a lot of psychological issues you have that I can't help you in. You have to seek professional help." Coming from CF I initially thought that was a strange thing to say because the elders were guru's on everything. But it was actually sound wisdom. It was the first time I had really seen humility in a church leader.
One of the things that actually turned me off churches was the overwhelming amount of people who wanted to talk to me. I was looking at different churches for a number of months and I developed a set script because I wanted space. It honestly felt like they had never had someone new come through their doors. Other then connecting with the priest, the other reason I liked this church was they weren't trying to make me attend every sunday or come to their bible studies or mens BBQ ect ect I could just sit in the pews and be as visible as I wanted. I was given permission to attend as much or as little as I needed.
1 thing I will say is if you are seeking connection again give yourself about 18 months it takes a while to get to know people and feel apart of the community.
But also be kind to yourself connecting to a group again is hard and given our background its completly understandable if Church is something that is just too hard.
something to ponder. Did Jesus create a religious order or did he try to dismantle it. If you look at the New testament carefully it was Jesus Disciples who built the church not Jesus. His words "go therefore and make disciples" has been misunderstood to go and make churches. I am not against churchs as healthy churches are both a good community and good for the community but you don't have to attend a church in order to have a connection to Jesus.
Please feel free to send me a message if you would like me to discuss further.
With love
BreakFree
This is a book I read when I first got out of CF. Its the Journey of the author coming from a conservative baptist church in the bible blet of America to a much more loving view of God, His word and His world. She explores the different Christian traditions and takes aspects from all of them that she appreciates. I would recommended this to everyone grappling with their faith.
https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/22574709
On a more personal note. Like Lilith I have found myself drawn into the Anglican Church. When I first met the priest he heard my story and was also upfront with me. His words were something to the effect of "I can help you spiritually but there is a lot of psychological issues you have that I can't help you in. You have to seek professional help." Coming from CF I initially thought that was a strange thing to say because the elders were guru's on everything. But it was actually sound wisdom. It was the first time I had really seen humility in a church leader.
One of the things that actually turned me off churches was the overwhelming amount of people who wanted to talk to me. I was looking at different churches for a number of months and I developed a set script because I wanted space. It honestly felt like they had never had someone new come through their doors. Other then connecting with the priest, the other reason I liked this church was they weren't trying to make me attend every sunday or come to their bible studies or mens BBQ ect ect I could just sit in the pews and be as visible as I wanted. I was given permission to attend as much or as little as I needed.
1 thing I will say is if you are seeking connection again give yourself about 18 months it takes a while to get to know people and feel apart of the community.
But also be kind to yourself connecting to a group again is hard and given our background its completly understandable if Church is something that is just too hard.
something to ponder. Did Jesus create a religious order or did he try to dismantle it. If you look at the New testament carefully it was Jesus Disciples who built the church not Jesus. His words "go therefore and make disciples" has been misunderstood to go and make churches. I am not against churchs as healthy churches are both a good community and good for the community but you don't have to attend a church in order to have a connection to Jesus.
Please feel free to send me a message if you would like me to discuss further.
With love
BreakFree
Re: The theology of 'planting'
Thank you for sharing this BreakFree. I hear you and feel for you in this. I have not been to xcf church for nearly 2 years...health issues caused me to not be able to attend, but even if healthy, I would have stopped attending as mornings until later afternoon is when I feel my worst. More to discuss here, but I can only do a bit at a time.
Just a huge thank you to everyone here. While I have had it easy compared to what you all have gone (and continue to go) through, it is not an easy road.
Just a huge thank you to everyone here. While I have had it easy compared to what you all have gone (and continue to go) through, it is not an easy road.
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