THERE IS A WAY BACK
Colin Bourne, prepared for Sunday Bible study, 28 August 2011
Transcription of recording, slightly edited
Introduction
‘There is a way back’ is my topic this morning. There is a way back for those who have left the Fellowship, who have wandered off. For those who have chosen in their own heart and said, ‘I want to do my own thing’, there is a way back.
For some of us who have been here for years and have gone away in our heart – there is a way back.
Some have left on the pretext of ‘moving on’. They want to find somewhere that better suits their lifestyle, their theology; that better suits the pressure from partner or family – for them, there is a way back.
The simple become wise or fools
The book of Proverbs describes three groups of people – the simple, the wise and the fools.
All of us start as the simple. The New Testament refers to having ‘a simple heart of devotion’ towards Christ. That is not the ‘simple’ I am referring to in Proverbs. The word in Proverbs means ‘naive’ or ‘easily led to good or evil’, ‘able to be seduced’. All of us start that way because of the Fall. Depending on our responses to God’s word – which can come through parents, the church, the elders, brothers and sisters – we will either become wise or we will become a fool.
Becoming a fool
‘The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise.’ Prov 12:15.
The fool leaves fellowship; walks away from the place where he is to be planted; is right in his own eyes; has a right to choose; has a right to his own opinion; and has a right to think whatever he wants to think.
‘A fool despises his father’s instruction, but he who receives correction is wise.’ Prov 15:5.
‘Rebuke is more effective for a wise man than a hundred blows on a fool.’ Prov 17:10.
‘Wisdom is in the sight of him who has understanding, but the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth.’ Prov 17:24.
The fool is everywhere with his thoughts, except where they should be. The wise one has his eyes clearly set on gaining wisdom.
‘Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.’ Prov 23:9.
‘As a dog returns to its own vomit, so a fool repeats his folly.’ Prov 26:11. The apostle Peter described the fool who has walked away as a dog returning to its own vomit, and a pig returning to the mud.1
1. 2 Peter 2:20-22
2. Prov
‘He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered.’ Prov 28:26.
‘For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes have been clearly seen [That is, the Lord’s], being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools.’ Rom 1:20-22.
No-one has an excuse, no-one can say, ‘I didn’t know’. We all make choices; we all proceed in a way that is going to destroy fellowship if we become a fool. We become the fool when we leave fellowship.
There is another voice that entices us away, and it is like an immoral woman – and sometimes actually is one. This woman’s words are ‘smoother than oil’ – better, smarter, more acceptable than the oil of the messenger – always smoother, more enticing, more convincing but, in the end, she is as ‘bitter as wormwood’, ‘her steps lay hold of hell’.2
We can waste our sonship
Jesus told the story of the prodigal son.3 I thought that ‘prodigal’ simply meant ‘lost’, but it actually means ‘wasteful’. So it is the story of the wasteful son, who came to his father and said, ‘Give me my share of the inheritance’. The father gave him his inheritance, and the son took it and wasted it all.
We could think of our inheritance as our sonship; our full sonship. When we walk away from fellowship, we waste our whole sonship. And that son had nowhere and nothing to return to because he had wasted his sonship. He couldn’t come back to the father and say, ‘Oh, Father, I want to reinstate my sonship now’, because there wasn’t anything left. He had wasted it all. It was all gone.
Coming back to sonship
However, there is a way back! In the account, the father waited and looked every day for the son to come back. In the far-off land, while he was eating in the pigsty, the son ‘came to himself’.4When a person walks away from fellowship, they leave themselves. They leave reality; they leave what should have been theirs.
4. Luke 15:17
He ‘came to himself’ in the foreign land, and it is my experience that those who come back, come to a place where they come back to themselves. They come back to a place where they begin to realise what they have lost.
The prodigal had wasted all of his sonship. As he came back, he had plans of what he was going to say. He was going to say, ‘Look, Father, the servants get fed better than where I am now. Please take me back as a servant. I have lost my sonship, it’s all gone, wasted, but take me back as a servant.’ He had planned what he was going to say, but the father did not want to listen to any of it. The father ran out, put his arms around his son, and put a cloak around him. He put a ring on his finger and had a banquet for him.
When people come back with a desire to return to the Father’s house, this is how the Father Himself meets them. He puts a ‘cloak’ around them. We read that those who have been baptised into Christ have ‘put on Christ’. And the words ‘put on’ have been translated, ‘clothed with Christ’.5 And this has the sense of ‘falling into a heavy garment’.
There is a place for them to come back to. He has created a place, but it is a new place; it is not the old place.
Coming back in a new way
When people come back to fellowship, they are not coming back to where they were, because ‘where they were’ led them out. They are coming back to the place they should have been in. It is a new place; it is not the old place.
The person coming back is to meet Christ in a new way. Jesus said, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life’.6When the person comes back, there is to be a meeting of Christ in a whole new way – not just as the way, but in a whole new way; a whole new approach. They are coming to Him, and first they meet Him as the Way. They are accepted in Him, and the Father accepts them and ‘cloaks’ them in Christ.
This is to be our response when people come back among us. We are to be as the cloak of Christ to them, for we are part of the Way, aren’t we? Interestingly the early church was called followers of ‘the Way’. We become the Way, even as Christ, to these ones. We are to ‘cloak’ them in that way.
6. John
When that prodigal son came back and had the cloak put around Him and had the party, was it all over? He was back, so was everything fine now? No, it had only just started. As you return, you should not quickly try to ‘normalise’ everything, thinking, ‘These were my old friends. I will slip back into the same slot again. This is what we used to do, this is how we used to talk’ – and we try to make everything back to normal as quickly as possible.
No, it is something new. I have noticed that those who have come back, who quickly normalise things, become offended because they haven’t properly come back, and they leave again. For some of those to ever return again is extremely difficult.
The word of the Father calls us back as sons
A person who has left the church can’t come back until there is a word that calls them back. The prodigal, when he came to himself, heard the word of his father in his heart. He heard it afresh. His response was to come back and look to the father. He was going to try and come in a lesser way, but the father said, ‘No! My son who was dead, is now alive. I do not want him as a servant; I want him as a son.’
The Father wants you as a son. If you are returning, he wants you as a son. He doesn’t want you as a servant, and neither does He want you to be presumptuous and say, ‘Oh well, everyone should just accept me now because I have come back’.
The truth of sonship
When we come back, the second step is that we meet Jesus as the Truth. This not only the truth about where they have been and what they have done, but also the truth about their predestination, their sonship.
The breaking of relationship
The sins that you commit while you are away from the Lord are far less significant than the sin of the breach of relationship, and the breaking of fellowship. When a person leaves the Lord and the brethren, they have broken their relationship with Christ, their godly family, their father, their mother, their brothers, their mothers and fathers in the Body. There is a huge breach.
A person does not wake up one morning and say, ‘Oh, it’s a nice day. I think I will leave the church today’. They have already decided – months and months before. They have listened to that immoral woman mentioned in the book of Proverbs. They have been seduced by her ‘smooth words’; ‘smoother than oil’.
They continue to come into the fellowship, joining the activities. But, actually, they are being ‘the Judas’ right in the midst. Do you ever stop and wonder when Judas became the betrayer? Was it just when he took the money from the chief priests? No, he became the betrayer long before that. Do you think that any of the other disciples knew? Do you think that when Jesus said, ‘One of you will betray Me’, they knew it was Judas? No, because when Jesus said, ‘One of you will betray Me’, every one of them asked, ‘Lord is it I?’ No-one said, ‘Of course it is Judas’.
The one returning has to fully accept that he has been the betrayer. He has utterly breached the relationship with his mother, father, brothers, sisters, the mothers and fathers in the body, the brothers and sisters in the body. He has wasted what was entrusted to him. No wonder the prodigal says he has no right to come back as a son. He wanted to come back merely as a servant, but when the person is meeting Christ as the Truth, he is illuminated to this reality. They may not have done many ‘terrible things’, but they have breached the relationships. How dreadful is that! And yet, the father of the prodigal was outside waiting every day for the return of his son. He never stopped waiting. Isn’t that incredible?
Forgiveness is both ways
What is the response that we are to have to a returning prodigal? We are to have total forgiveness. How do we know that Jesus had total forgiveness of Judas? Why, because when Judas came back, Jesus allowed him to kiss him and called him ‘friend’ because he was forgiven.
Restoration of relationship is not about forgiveness one way; it is a two-way restoration. We are to start with a heart that says, ‘I forgive you for the betrayal. I forgive you for the breach of the relationship.’ We are not to be arrogant, judging who is right and who is wrong.
Being sanctified in our relationships
We are to have a very clear, sanctified attitude in relation to the ones who have left. Jesus said that in the end there will be many whose love will wax cold and they will leave. If sons and daughters leave the fellowship, our attitude needs to be a sanctified attitude. We need to be in the place where we do not normalise their disobedience.
Many of the ones who have left, have phoned people and said, ‘We still want to be friends’. In other words, they are saying, ‘If you do not continue to be friends towards me, then you are not being very Christian, so it is your fault; you have the problem’. What a dreadful place you are being put into, because they are really saying, ‘I want you to normalise my disobedience. I want you to pretend it did not really happen, and let us just get on with it.’
Fellowship is lost
For families, this becomes very, very difficult when there are family celebrations. How do you meet these ones – because it cannot be fellowship? You cannot have fellowship where fellowship has been breached. It is impossible.
Jude said, ‘These are spots in your love feasts’.7You cannot have fellowship. We do not say, ‘You have left our church, so we cannot have fellowship with you anymore’. That one has breached fellowship and relationship, so fellowship cannot possibly happen. It is light and darkness. Do not try to normalise it.
Loving the brethren
Do not come under the pressure of these ones. If they start asking you about people in the fellowship, why do they want to know? What do they really want to know for? It cannot be because they still love us because, if they loved us, why would they leave?
We are not here because we have signed a piece of paper; we are here because we love the brethren. I am here because I love you. I am not here because this doctrine is correct and the others are not. I am here because God has planted me here and I love you. If I walk away from you, where can we have fellowship?
If I walk away from you, and then I say to you, ‘Oh, how is Fred going, and how is Bill going, and how is Gertrude going?’, why would I want to know? That is only gossip. It is only gossip and self-justification. They do not really want to know. And if you enter into it, you are becoming a gossiper. You are giving them gossip.
A clear way back
We are not secretive here at all, but we want to be absolutely clear in our relationships because, when a person goes out, there has to be a clear way back. They may leave by ‘the back door’, but they have to come back in ‘the front door’; they can’t sneak back in the back door.
If we have made it confusing as to what real fellowship is, and what reality is, it makes it impossible for them to work out how to find the way through to Jesus as the Truth. If the lines of relationship are clear, the way back is clear.
Restoring relationship
They need to restore relationship with their mother, father, the mothers and fathers in the body, their brothers and sisters in the body. They need to restore relationship! They need to humbly apologise for all the pain that they have caused others.
Every one of us knows incredible pain when people decide to walk away. And much of that pain, I believe, is because we know that we were betrayed a long time before. We know that even as they were talking to us, they had already decided to leave. There is a dreadful pain in that.
Putting off shame
We meet Christ as the Life, growing into the full place in the body of Christ without shame. Did you know that when Paul was preaching, he went to places where he had caused some of those people to suffer physically because of their faith? He probably even caused some of their brothers and sisters and parents to be killed because of their faith. So, you can imagine that when he went and preached to these people, he had to stand without shame. He had to stand without shame, but he had to restore relationship.
Those of you who are coming back, need to put away shame. That doesn’t mean that you are proud of what you have done at all; but you have to put away shame, and you have to start meeting the Father properly.
The consequences of choices
You have to start finding your sonship properly, because now there is a new place of predestination for you, and there will be aspects that are going to change because of the fact that you left. The predestination God had before for you is no longer the same.
Some who have gone out, have married. They have had children. They have put their bodies to all sorts of dreadful things and have physical things that have happened to them. Some of them have been on drugs. They have mental problems, and these are the consequences of their actions.
I have often told people that they can choose to do whatever they want to do, but they cannot choose the consequences of what they do; the consequences are set. If a person walks away, the consequences are that the relationship is dead. If a person is coming back, they are bringing some of the consequences of their choices, and they have to live with those and be responsible for them. That is part of the walk back.
Returning to a place of offering
But God has a predestination for this one who has returned. God has works for them. There is a place of offering for this one who has returned. This is the life; this is meeting Jesus as the Life because, as they are giving, they are fellowshipping. They are entering back into life as it ought to have been right from the very start.
‘But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ until eternal life. And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to God our Saviour, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power. Both now and forever. Amen.’ Jude 20-25.
For those of you who are returning, there is a full way back. Make sure you avail yourself of it. Do not stop short.
A season and a word to return
For those of you who are struggling within yourselves – as I said, I believe that there are some here amongst us, who have actually left in their heart – you can turn back right now. You can repent right now. You can find a way back right now and start a journey back to where you should have been; not back to where you were a year ago, six months ago.
There is a way back, and I believe that we need to pray for the returning of our sons and daughters who have left. We have friends who have left – they were friends; we committed our hearts to them. Now we can believe for their returning; believe that God will speak a word to them.
There is a season as there was a season for the prodigal. He had to go right to the pigsty. And sometimes we wonder what it is going to take for some to turn. In reality, that has nothing to do with it. There is a Proverb that records that you only have to speak a word of rebuke to a wise man and he will turn, but you can hit a fool a hundred times and he won’t even get the point.8I have seen some absolutely dreadful things happen to those who have walked away. They are absolutely the victims of time and chance. That is not going to make them turn.
It is the word of the Lord that will make them turn, and we need to be part of the prayer toward that end, and part of the answer for those who are returning. There is an answer.
‘I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.’ Luke 15:10. Remember that ‘angel’ means ‘messenger’. So, when one sinner repents, the messengers who brought the message to that one rejoice. They rejoice!
THERE IS A WAY BACK
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Ephesians 6:10-20 NKJV
[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. [11] Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. [13] Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, [15] and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; [18] praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— [19] and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
https://bible.com/bible/114/eph.6.10.NKJV
[10] Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. [11] Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. [13] Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, [15] and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; [16] above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. [17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; [18] praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— [19] and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, [20] for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
https://bible.com/bible/114/eph.6.10.NKJV
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
“It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
Stand firm then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again
by a yoke of bondage.”
Galatians 5:1
Stand firm then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again
by a yoke of bondage.”
Galatians 5:1
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Dear Guest
I am intrigued by your post and it could be taken a number of ways.
It could be a very desperate attempt to reach out to a loved one who has left, given the current belief coming from CF that there is only a couple of years left before the rapture.
Or you have posted this for some discussion. However, there is not much context to the sermon. So I am a bit suspicious of your motive.
Regardless I'll play along.
The entire story is found in Acts 8:26-40
the key to the story is Verse 34 & 35. Lets start with Jesus
"34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." https://biblegateway.com/passage/?searc ... ersion=NIV
Please reach out if you want to discuss anything. I created an email address which can be found in the post titled CIFS workshop.
Love and Blessing
I am intrigued by your post and it could be taken a number of ways.
It could be a very desperate attempt to reach out to a loved one who has left, given the current belief coming from CF that there is only a couple of years left before the rapture.
Or you have posted this for some discussion. However, there is not much context to the sermon. So I am a bit suspicious of your motive.
Regardless I'll play along.
The entire story is found in Acts 8:26-40
the key to the story is Verse 34 & 35. Lets start with Jesus
"34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." https://biblegateway.com/passage/?searc ... ersion=NIV
Please reach out if you want to discuss anything. I created an email address which can be found in the post titled CIFS workshop.
Love and Blessing
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Different guest here...
I too am intrigued by the posting of this sermon. Whether it is sincere or for analysis, may we glorify God nonetheless. May we all have a heart of repentance and forgiveness. May the Lord have mercy on us all. As St Paul wrote, It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. Amen. Now to the sermon I have only one section I wish to highlight.
When we love we should desire forgiveness. With regards to forgiveness, I have a scenario I'd like to put forward... If we have family who cleave to xCF despite the red flags and flagrant errors of the group, are we able to ask for their forgiveness? Has anyone done this before, and if so how did it go? Does a humble and contrite heart suffice? My theory is that inside the group, there is a necessary link between one desiring forgiveness and returning to xCF. Should this hold anyone back from seeking forgiveness for the sake of their own salvation?
Our Lord, when He was received by the sinful woman in the Gospel according to St Luke, said, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little. Amen. +
I too am intrigued by the posting of this sermon. Whether it is sincere or for analysis, may we glorify God nonetheless. May we all have a heart of repentance and forgiveness. May the Lord have mercy on us all. As St Paul wrote, It’s true that some are preaching out of jealousy and rivalry. But others preach about Christ with pure motives. They preach because they love me, for they know I have been appointed to defend the Good News. Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. Amen. Now to the sermon I have only one section I wish to highlight.
After leaving xCF, some of us may find ourselves with a sincere repentance for the pain we have caused others through our leaving. This is despite, and partly due to, in our search arriving in a gathering of believers who are only set on knowing our Lord and living by His commandments. Whether it was for good or for bad, leaving a community where there were friendships causes pain. Our Lord says in the Gospel according to St Matthew, For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. In this way, I have forgiven everything of everyone who I knew at BCF, at least in my heart.Restoring relationship
They need to restore relationship with their mother, father, the mothers and fathers in the body, their brothers and sisters in the body. They need to restore relationship! They need to humbly apologise for all the pain that they have caused others.
Every one of us knows incredible pain when people decide to walk away. And much of that pain, I believe, is because we know that we were betrayed a long time before. We know that even as they were talking to us, they had already decided to leave. There is a dreadful pain in that.
When we love we should desire forgiveness. With regards to forgiveness, I have a scenario I'd like to put forward... If we have family who cleave to xCF despite the red flags and flagrant errors of the group, are we able to ask for their forgiveness? Has anyone done this before, and if so how did it go? Does a humble and contrite heart suffice? My theory is that inside the group, there is a necessary link between one desiring forgiveness and returning to xCF. Should this hold anyone back from seeking forgiveness for the sake of their own salvation?
Our Lord, when He was received by the sinful woman in the Gospel according to St Luke, said, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little. Amen. +
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Hi Guest,
It depends on how you see yourself in the situation and your definition of forgiveness.
Consider:
In the case of domestic violence should the person abused ask forgiveness if they left the abusive relationship because it causes the abuser pain?
Dealing with cults is similar but with an additional layer of complication.
Starting at the point of everyone in the cult is brainwashed. While in this state they are not their true self they have taken on a pseudo personality of the cult. Thus they become the face of the abuser toward you. Take for example parents and children. It is considered acceptable practice for parents to hit their children in CF. Is that the parents actual choice or did they cave to the peer pressure of the group. The answer is both. It is only when the parent is freed from the brainwashing can they truly appreciate what their actions were. At this point they have another choice of accountability and saying sorry.
In this situation I had to wrestle with this conundrum. My parents were the ones that disciplined me, they hit me so they are the abusers. As I sought t have a relationship with them I needed help in shifting my perspective. I had to look deep and see the true nature of my parents and say they would not do that, the people who abused me were under the influence of the cult.
I hope this make sense.
As for me asking forgiveness of anyone in CF for leaving. I will not because that keeps me the victim in the situation. I will not apologies for my freedom and ability to think for myself. You need to put blame where it belongs in the situation. put it another way if you have been outcast should you apologies for being cast out?
I hope this helps. As mentioned previously if you want to reach out please do.
It depends on how you see yourself in the situation and your definition of forgiveness.
Consider:
In the case of domestic violence should the person abused ask forgiveness if they left the abusive relationship because it causes the abuser pain?
Dealing with cults is similar but with an additional layer of complication.
Starting at the point of everyone in the cult is brainwashed. While in this state they are not their true self they have taken on a pseudo personality of the cult. Thus they become the face of the abuser toward you. Take for example parents and children. It is considered acceptable practice for parents to hit their children in CF. Is that the parents actual choice or did they cave to the peer pressure of the group. The answer is both. It is only when the parent is freed from the brainwashing can they truly appreciate what their actions were. At this point they have another choice of accountability and saying sorry.
In this situation I had to wrestle with this conundrum. My parents were the ones that disciplined me, they hit me so they are the abusers. As I sought t have a relationship with them I needed help in shifting my perspective. I had to look deep and see the true nature of my parents and say they would not do that, the people who abused me were under the influence of the cult.
I hope this make sense.
As for me asking forgiveness of anyone in CF for leaving. I will not because that keeps me the victim in the situation. I will not apologies for my freedom and ability to think for myself. You need to put blame where it belongs in the situation. put it another way if you have been outcast should you apologies for being cast out?
I hope this helps. As mentioned previously if you want to reach out please do.
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Dear different guest,
I love your humility and soft heart.
Please know that Jesus has radically forgiven you “even while we are yet sinners Christ died for us”. His love for you is everlasting, be reassured. He sees your humble heart.
Re asking CF family for forgiveness, keep in mind that many of us have no access to our CF former friends or family as we have been blacklisted, shunned, ghosted, disfellowshipped etc.
Many were NOT given a choice, but were excommunicated along with being called betrayers, devils and bound for hell.
Those who “chose to leave” would have also been excommunicated if they’d have expressed their concerns while in the church.
We were all blamed and shamed and the sermon above clearly expresses this attitude.
Don’t you think an apology would confirm to them that we are the ones at fault? Do you think any show of humility/apology would be received? Do you think it might be another opportunity for them to accuse/abuse?
Remember, according to Colin Bourne “the relationship is dead”.
The only avenue to having access to a relationship, and expressing being sorry is to “follow the way back”.
So you are right about “a necessary link between one desiring forgiveness and returning to CF”.
An XCF asking for forgiveness will most certainly be told- “if you were really sorry, you would return”; “those are crocodile tears unless you return”; “if you are not on the way back, you are simply demonstrating a religious spirit” etc.
I have often heard Colin and the others say these things consistently through the years.
I did express concern to a close relative about how my leaving would reflect on them. I was firmly reassured that it wasn’t an issue. Remaining CF family members are applauded for taking a stand and being firm in their faith!
Where are apologies due?
My apologies were to my children - for the abuse they endured in the church.
Others on this forum have expressed how they’ve found forgiveness from the Lord for taking their children into the CF.
And finally I’m continually drawing from the deep well of God’s forgiveness, when anger towards the church or its people rises up, and finding His strength and compassion to love those few CFers who still choose to have contact with me.
Blessings
I love your humility and soft heart.
Please know that Jesus has radically forgiven you “even while we are yet sinners Christ died for us”. His love for you is everlasting, be reassured. He sees your humble heart.
Re asking CF family for forgiveness, keep in mind that many of us have no access to our CF former friends or family as we have been blacklisted, shunned, ghosted, disfellowshipped etc.
Many were NOT given a choice, but were excommunicated along with being called betrayers, devils and bound for hell.
Those who “chose to leave” would have also been excommunicated if they’d have expressed their concerns while in the church.
We were all blamed and shamed and the sermon above clearly expresses this attitude.
Don’t you think an apology would confirm to them that we are the ones at fault? Do you think any show of humility/apology would be received? Do you think it might be another opportunity for them to accuse/abuse?
Remember, according to Colin Bourne “the relationship is dead”.
The only avenue to having access to a relationship, and expressing being sorry is to “follow the way back”.
So you are right about “a necessary link between one desiring forgiveness and returning to CF”.
An XCF asking for forgiveness will most certainly be told- “if you were really sorry, you would return”; “those are crocodile tears unless you return”; “if you are not on the way back, you are simply demonstrating a religious spirit” etc.
I have often heard Colin and the others say these things consistently through the years.
I did express concern to a close relative about how my leaving would reflect on them. I was firmly reassured that it wasn’t an issue. Remaining CF family members are applauded for taking a stand and being firm in their faith!
Where are apologies due?
My apologies were to my children - for the abuse they endured in the church.
Others on this forum have expressed how they’ve found forgiveness from the Lord for taking their children into the CF.
And finally I’m continually drawing from the deep well of God’s forgiveness, when anger towards the church or its people rises up, and finding His strength and compassion to love those few CFers who still choose to have contact with me.
Blessings
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
From BreakFree: The entire story is found in Acts 8:26-40
the key to the story is Verse 34 & 35. Lets start with Jesus
"34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." https://biblegateway.com/passage/?searc ... ersion=NIV
One tiny passing mention of Jesus in his diatribe. This is pretty much the norm in any and all of Vic's false messages spewed out of the mouths of his sycophants. Nothing of Jesus, nothing of his sacrifice for us....no, it's all about (EVERY STINKING MESSAGE!!!) how blessed we are to have the star messenger in the right hand of Christ...(and it pains me to even say this!) Every message is a psychological tome in how bad we are and how great the elders are. IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, You must....and I mean MUST trust the ones Pope Vic has chosen to run your life. Amazing. The whole 'agape' meal thing still has me sick to my stomach. Along with the fact in order for it to be a true agape meal, (ala communion) the conversation MUST be about Vic's "present word'. I've had a couple of adult beverages, so I better stop now before....well, you know!
the key to the story is Verse 34 & 35. Lets start with Jesus
"34 The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?” 35 Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." https://biblegateway.com/passage/?searc ... ersion=NIV
One tiny passing mention of Jesus in his diatribe. This is pretty much the norm in any and all of Vic's false messages spewed out of the mouths of his sycophants. Nothing of Jesus, nothing of his sacrifice for us....no, it's all about (EVERY STINKING MESSAGE!!!) how blessed we are to have the star messenger in the right hand of Christ...(and it pains me to even say this!) Every message is a psychological tome in how bad we are and how great the elders are. IN ORDER TO BE SAVED, You must....and I mean MUST trust the ones Pope Vic has chosen to run your life. Amazing. The whole 'agape' meal thing still has me sick to my stomach. Along with the fact in order for it to be a true agape meal, (ala communion) the conversation MUST be about Vic's "present word'. I've had a couple of adult beverages, so I better stop now before....well, you know!
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Regardless of the intent of the original post, I have a few thoughts. But seeing that Easter is approaching, I think it's appropriate to first state what should be obvious to all believers: Jesus died for all of us because He loves us — every one of us! So if you're reading this and you attend xCF, if you've left and xCF, or if you're just browsing the web, know that JESUS LOVES YOU!! I encourage you to take the time and think about what that means, not just in a general way, but what that means for you specifically, here, now, today.
But back to Colin's sermon from 2011...
Many parts of the sermon are unclear, leaving the listener to join the dots, so to speak. This is particularly true when describing 'leaving fellowship', or similar phrases. Here are a few examples that are worth thinking more closely about.
The sermon lacks a key detail that should have been stated clearly at the outset. That is, something to say what exactly it means that someone is coming 'back'. Back from what? Back from leaving an xCF group, or back from leaving God? The wording seems to (potentially falsely) conflate the two. Sure, some have left xCF, stopped following Jesus and became unbelievers. Many, many others left xCF and never left the faith. In fact, there is no pathway 'back' (whatever that means) to genuine fellowship, regardless of which church they attend, until there is genuine repentance for the lies and deceitfulness of the xCF leadership group. The sermon quoted many proverbs, so it's appropriate to say that, for many people, it was a wise decision to stop attending an xCF church.
The sermon appears to compare the parable of the prodigal to those who have stopped attending an xCF. However, the wording is unclear, so people end up talking past each other. In reference to that parable, here's another one of those 'what exactly does that mean?' statements:
Take the quote:
No, this is not a Bible verse. It's xCF in-speak. But look a little more closely. What does 'leaves fellowship' mean? Does it mean 'leaves xCF'? Furthermore, the statement appears to conflate those who '[leave the] fellowship' with all those nasty things like being a "fool", or "has a right to his own opinion... right to think whatever he wants to think..."
Here's another one:
When a devout xCF hears the above statement, for reasons described above, they actually hear something more like this:
"When [name of someone who has left xCF] comes back and asks for forgiveness from the xCF presbytery, they need to learn how to be a servant in the xCF house. If they don't, they should be treated like lepers were in the OT. But if they speak well enough of the star messenger, over a sustained period, then they may get the chance to be healed of their leprosy by sucking up to the xCF leaders".
Ironically, Colin was treated like a leper at BCF for many years. Now, he's become a regular mouthpiece for Vic's theology at BCF. It's sad to see. I wish the parable of the prodigal were properly understood and applied. If it were, Colin wouldn't have been treated like a leper, and he wouldn't have preached a sermon like that.
Anyway, I've rambled long enough.
Blessings.
But back to Colin's sermon from 2011...
Many parts of the sermon are unclear, leaving the listener to join the dots, so to speak. This is particularly true when describing 'leaving fellowship', or similar phrases. Here are a few examples that are worth thinking more closely about.
The sermon lacks a key detail that should have been stated clearly at the outset. That is, something to say what exactly it means that someone is coming 'back'. Back from what? Back from leaving an xCF group, or back from leaving God? The wording seems to (potentially falsely) conflate the two. Sure, some have left xCF, stopped following Jesus and became unbelievers. Many, many others left xCF and never left the faith. In fact, there is no pathway 'back' (whatever that means) to genuine fellowship, regardless of which church they attend, until there is genuine repentance for the lies and deceitfulness of the xCF leadership group. The sermon quoted many proverbs, so it's appropriate to say that, for many people, it was a wise decision to stop attending an xCF church.
The sermon appears to compare the parable of the prodigal to those who have stopped attending an xCF. However, the wording is unclear, so people end up talking past each other. In reference to that parable, here's another one of those 'what exactly does that mean?' statements:
It appears that Colin is saying that if you leave xCF, you walk away from 'fellowship', and hence you forfeit your 'sonship'. When the wording is unclear, it would be easy to interpret this to mean that leaving xCF = no longer born of God. Of course, if you ask an xCF leader if leaving xCF = no longer born of God, they could (technically) say, "We've never said that!". The reality is that the same ambiguous statements get rolled out week by week, and the listener eventually joins the dots and falls under the spell of the xCF theology."When we walk away from fellowship, we waste our whole sonship"
Take the quote:
"The fool leaves fellowship; walks away from the place where he is to be planted; is right in his own eyes; has a right to choose; has a right to his own opinion; and has a right to think whatever he wants to think."
No, this is not a Bible verse. It's xCF in-speak. But look a little more closely. What does 'leaves fellowship' mean? Does it mean 'leaves xCF'? Furthermore, the statement appears to conflate those who '[leave the] fellowship' with all those nasty things like being a "fool", or "has a right to his own opinion... right to think whatever he wants to think..."
Here's another one:
"When people come back with a desire to return to the Father's house, this is how the Father Himself meets them."
When a devout xCF hears the above statement, for reasons described above, they actually hear something more like this:
"When [name of someone who has left xCF] comes back and asks for forgiveness from the xCF presbytery, they need to learn how to be a servant in the xCF house. If they don't, they should be treated like lepers were in the OT. But if they speak well enough of the star messenger, over a sustained period, then they may get the chance to be healed of their leprosy by sucking up to the xCF leaders".
Ironically, Colin was treated like a leper at BCF for many years. Now, he's become a regular mouthpiece for Vic's theology at BCF. It's sad to see. I wish the parable of the prodigal were properly understood and applied. If it were, Colin wouldn't have been treated like a leper, and he wouldn't have preached a sermon like that.
Anyway, I've rambled long enough.
Blessings.
Re: THERE IS A WAY BACK
Transcription of recording, slightly edited
Do you know what this means?
It’s been used many times in BCF notes.
Vic has often slandered Christian leaders, Christian churches, Christian doctrines etc etc etc or their ‘unchristian behaviour’
Claiming that only he as an apostle has met and talked with Jesus.
I guess ‘slightly edited’ is for legal reasons?????
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