It shows that Vic's fall is one of pride. And hence the need to justify the position with lots of revelations.
There is undoubtedly much good in all of these men. But their self-seeking means and pride has destroyed them. What a warning for us!
But of course it is PARTLY true:
It's this emphasis that:And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Rom 10:14,15
1. Your local elder was always your primary messenger
2. He had a message for you EVERY time you wanted to make ANY decision (it was an on-demand, direct connection to the Lord, no prayer or devotion required)
3. It was prescriptive detail, not just general guidance or advice or a reflection
4. It had to be obeyed or else hell
That's where it went cultish and stupid.
This is what I meant when I wrote that Paul NOW has a real calling from Almighty God,
meaning that Paul was not a "lackey" being thrown morsels from the table like to a hungry dog, but had a GENUINE calling from the REAL "fix-it-man".Paul, I believe you are demonstrating to all of us the gift that the Lord has given you for our benefit.
This content has been reposted several hours later, because for reasons best known to itself, it decided to post as complete - which it was not. Please accept my apologies folks...
No, I do not claim "second sight" or to have "visions" or "visitations" like some charismatic controllers do, and over the last few years I have realised while much of the charismatic "stuff" is manipulative and great for controlling others, there most certainly is a spiritual realm that surrounds us.
However, I'm equally convinced that access to that realm is ONLY when HE (The Lord) in His wisdom chooses, and when it fits HIS agenda (and economy). chooses..
And there lies the difference between the charlatans (on one side), and us plebs who have no opinion unless it is a "rubber-stamp".
I'm quite serious.
Yes, I have actually been greatly privileged to have a couple of such glimpses of "Heavenly Places", but having only a couple in eighty-three years is very different from regularly (according to some), or a lengthy one claiming to tell you what you must tell everyone else - and woe betide you if you don't believe the revelation!
- Let us remember that prophetic ministry was mostly in the OT - the period BEFORE Christ came to save us.
- Apostles were those called by Jesus out of the quite large body of followers who walked miles with Him to hear His words and try to understand them.
- IF we were to have an apostolic ministry now (and there are many "quacks" who claim to have one, why were the original twelve (actually eleven of the twelve, augmented by a new "twelfth man" replacing Judas from Kerioth) not kept up to date by promoting plebs like us as they died nasty painful deaths?
- Could it have been because the Lord's intention was a temporary ministry during the early years of the church?
Some of us here may disagree with me in places. That is fine for two extremely important reasons --
- I am not God, nor have ever claimed to be His messenger.
- I do NOT believe He has called me to utter edicts that claim to be His word.
Remember Cain's almost accusation to God about Abel when he sneeringly asked "Am I my brother's keeper?" and the obvious answer implied by the writer was "Yes".
I believe most firmly that each of us IS our brother's keeper.
I ask you to consider a post on the previous - the "phase 2" if you like - of this bulletin board, and I hope to shortly post back my saved copy of it here for all here to read and digest. It was a post about/by a young man (from memory in the UK) who was disillusioned with the manipulation in a cult, and wrote about it. From memory it was Gillie who posted it before.
To this, I hope to add a most remarkable and honest similar but totallt different document from (I think) a previous assistant editor of the "Washington Post" who moved to the other side of the USA to become editor of another journal.
Seriously, I believe you will notice (if you are honest) how wierd and un-godlike are the so-called teachings and personal attitudes of these people after reading them.
If you disagree with these comments when I have posted them, then that's fine. They are still my thoughts when stacked up against scripture!
But I need collect them, then post them, so that you can and may understand my defence of this point.
Just a brief note on MCF prior to the focus on control and 25 years of navel-gazing via Vic's 'guru headship' and family order etc teachings.
There were undoubtedly some great teachings and clarity in the word MCF/BCF had via Ray Jackson Snr beyond Pentecostalism itself:
* Vision of unity (although poorly practised)
* Jerusalem Passion Oratorio (Murray Wylie)
* Body of Christ
* Priesthood of all believers (although poorly practised)
* Multiple eldership (although poorly practised)
* Insights into OT symbols (tabernacle, feasts etc).
* Insight into end-times
* Praise & worship
* Gifts of the HS
Much of this came from Latter Rain and Offiler etc, but Ray Snr brought it to us and we loved it and we tried to live it. I'm, not sure what he added to it, if anything, but it was pretty solid.
But, EVEN throughout those good times we know:
1. From Kevin Connor's biography that there was TERRIBLE stuff going on.
Ray Jackson Snr's indiscretions were known by at least three elders to be 100% true:
from as early as 1959!
These 3 men were demonised by Ray Snr AND THE OTHER ELDERS for trying to get it dealt with! Why would you not properly investigate issues brought up by any ONE of these men let alone THREE of them over the years?
2. In my experience (1984 onwards) there was a great spirit of Antichrist in that era eldership that sought to keep us younger ones in our 20s-40s 'in our place' for no reason other than their insecurity and desire for control. They did not 'build us up' to function (Eph). Elders in their 70s and 80s kept teaching us and teaching us stuff we WANTED to teach and share further! We were ready for work. Give us something to do!
One of those 70 year-olds said to me at age 30: 'And who's going to run the Sunday School? You?' This to me, one who had only ever shown 100% devotion and love for the word and was a PhD scientist who could have run a Sunday School blindfolded WITH a solid heart of wholesomeness and care for kids AND solid scholarship.
That was the evidence of their spirit of Antichrist that should have sent me packing in 1995.
These two evidences demonstrate the context for Ray Snr's exposing.
MCF had no-one else to lead them and they were already exercising controlling, unbelieving behaviour towards the congregation so that coming under Vic was almost the logical, bad-tasting pill they needed to take in their crazed way of thinking.
All they needed to do was go back to Bible 101: love and the book of Acts. Live like that. Instead they rambled on about 'one lump' and sacked everyone who had nothing to do with it and kept all the ones who DIDN'T believe the 3 whistle blowers!
It was a nutty time. None of it made sense because it was mindless. It was like President Bush Jnr when 911 happened and he wanted to go get Saddam Hussein instead of Osama Bin Laden. Just like that.
They pointed the finger at everyone except themselves.
I have read your posts with both sadness and interest. It is probably not helpful to say that your experience is not unique but I wanted you to know that there are a multitude of us out here that share what you have been through at MCF and we have survived. Dreams dashed, ideas squashed, opportunities squandered for an ideal perpetrated by a philandering adulterer who was only in it for power and control.
Just a couple of thoughts for today in response to some of your experiences. Things were bad well before the 1988 -9 implosion. I see you have read Kevin Connor's book - all true but nothing was done from the 1950's and so the behaviour continued and permeated the whole organisation. Cover ups, excuses for the man were common. With regard to Vic Hall - he was naming himself as the next apostle in 1973. He shines as an horrific example of a narcissistic megalomaniac and has always been so. Did you know that even the family dog didn't like him and pissed on his pillow and in his slippers ...?! (That's a story from a long time ago but true! I think the dog had more understanding of the man than some of the elders.)
I can only encourage you to hang in there because things will get better. I was in in the early days prior to Vic's ascension and his being allowed to have total control over all things at what was then Immanuel. Stupid, gutless elders at MCF and their feeble forelock tugging to placate a sociopath. I agree with you that there was a small window of opportunity to get back on track and turn things around but they blew it.
I know all the people you have named. I could tell you some stories!
Despite the losses I experienced from being in that cult I can honestly say that my years out of it have been great. I've done things I didn't think I could do in my work, in studies and with family. Not there are no regrets ... Plenty of those but (at the risk of using that overused Julia Gillard phrase) mostly putting it behind by trying to look forward to the next project, next holiday, next book to read, next branch on the family tree to explore ... Just go for it!
http://markconner.typepad.com/catch_the ... -fear.html
It's a good read. Take a gander, if you will, fellow Streetcar crewmembers.
Just a small problem; this is the only known explanation for why his dad didn't say anything with teeth in it about Morag's questions.
How then are hurting people reading this blog to understand the needed answer to "why didn't Kevin say anything?"
In my research maybe 12 years ago when writing "Immanuel" there wasn't anything there either, no answers, which is WHY I took the line I did to downplay current leaders.
Hope you don't mind my chucking in my two cents
With regard to Kevin's book and his account of his dealings with Ray J Senior over the immorality - a friend told me that her mother who had been in Immanuel in the early days - 60s I think - but left sometime in the early 80s, was furious when she read that book and found out Kevin knew of Ray's behaviour all along. She said that if she had known then what she knows now she would never have darkened their door and certainly wouldn't have taken her family along.
It's been debated in my household and with ex-MCF and non-MCF leaders: whose job is it to expose fallen LEADERS?
God? Leaders? Congregation members?
1. States there needs to be multiple witnesses
2. Commends those who have 'tested false apostles'
Some think it should be only God or other leaders and just vote with your feet.
But are we LONG-TERM, COMMITTED congregation members not all leaders of a sort anyway? We all have graces and skills and callings.
I fall on the side that it is up to us committed congregation members to do the job if no-one else will (and this is consistent with 1 & 2 above).
That is the current situation at MCF and that is why I am vocal: for the sake of those still in there (and to remind the leadership purely IN THE NATURAL of what they robbed us of and what they owe us SINCE THEY WONT EVEN DISCUSS IT PROPERLY).
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