Vic Hall and Peter Hay's weird seed/baptism theology

[BreakFree]

TRIGGER WARNING

I have been digging around and found a sermon series by Peter Hay in 2022 which looks like the same baptism material Vic Hall preached in Bowral on 1 Dec this year. and some of this content is also in the new creation book released this year.

So either Vic can’t come up with new content or can’t make up his own content and is just rehashing stuff from the past and packaging at ‘present truth’.

I want to highlight some more weird parts of this content. It would be laughable, if it wasn’t disturbing due to the disclosures of abuse happening. The whole theology around baptism has a bit of a sexual undertone to it. if I remember correctly, Vic actually uses the word conceived not germination in his preaching of it.

Germination of the Seed – 6/3/22 by Peter Hay is an 12 page document. I picked out the lines that stood out to me as weird when put together. Question is, if you gave this to a person who attends a church and not a cult, would it pass or would they think it’s creepy? Would this be grooming? Links to the sermon papers are at the end.

In this passage and in many of the passages that use this particular Greek word, sperma, it refers to either the natural or spiritual descendants of a person. Jesus, the Son of God, is the Seed, or sperma, of the Father. He is the descendant of the Father.

When a believer begins to cry, ‘Abba, Father’, it reveals they have been born of God, because the life of God the Son who is crying out, ‘Abba, Father’, has become their life and is now their expression.

But when the transaction happens, that which the Son comes in proclaiming as adoption to them has become their possession.

A believer’s cry of ‘Abba, Father’ reveals that they have been born of God, because the life of the Son has germinated within them by the Holy Spirit.

The evidence of this germination is the joy of salvation. The first ‘mark’ of this germination is ‘for joy’ − that is an expression. This is the evidence of this new birth transaction having taken place.

When we receive the Holy Spirit – this is the incorruptible seed by which we are born of God – that is described as an earnest, or down-payment, or a little bit ‘in lieu’, of the whole of our eternal inheritance.

This means that we are touching or obtaining eternal life, while in a mortal body.

Our body now has become a temple, or a residence, of the Holy Spirit, who enables offering work in us.

He is in you, affirming to you that you are a son and an heir of God – on one condition: that you suffer with Christ.

When you receive the Holy Spirit, you no longer are the one who is in control of your life.

The Spirit does not only birth you; He also joins you to that offering reality, so that what you do in your body are the works of your sonship by which the Father is being glorified.

A key indicator of a person’s failure to proceed beyond the prevenient grace of wayside ground is that they can become beset by fear and angst, particularly in relation to matters to do with the church and the body of Christ; and their participation in it.

The seed-germination process requires receiving the word from a presbytery. ‘Germination’ requires us to receive understanding through a word from outside of ourselves.

If we cannot receive a messenger or a word from outside of ourself, that seed-germination process will not happen, because that word that is coming is proclaimed by the Holy Spirit, sent down from heaven.

It is not merely the fact that you will not receive the word of a person. It is because the Holy Spirit has anointed that person who is proclaiming that message to you. If you cannot receive that, the germination process will not happen.

Germination requires us to receive understanding through a word from outside of ourselves. As we hear this word, ministered by the Spirit, we begin to see the treasure of our calling as a son of God.

The joy that you first obtained through germination will grow up to its fullness as you are established in that fellowship. To obtain this treasure, a person must ‘sell all that they have to buy the field’, as Jesus proclaimed.

And what do we have to sell? What do you and I have to sell? What do we value most and fight for the most? Our most prized article is our own understanding, isn’t it?

It is our own interpretation or our belief in our own right to interpret what something means for us or does not mean for us. That is what we have to sell

https://communion.bcf.org.au/WordDataba ... d_WORD.pdf

other papers in the series

https://communion.bcf.org.au/WordDataba ... d_WORD.pdf
https://communion.bcf.org.au/WordDataba ... 1_WORD.pdf
https://communion.bcf.org.au/WordDataba ... 1_WORD.pdf
https://communion.bcf.org.au/WordDataba ... 2_WORD.pdf

[Paul Kovaks]

BF
I think the cult is in the presbytery being involved.

The concept of both Jesus and us being seeds (starting points which must be buried & watered) analogous to ‘dying to self’ is widespread Christian theology.

And biologically the purpose of that process is . . germination.

The word itself is not in the Bible but is implied because Jesus tells us faith is like a seed. It’s growth implies germination.

And other theologians describe it as germination.

Eg Ellen G White (1900)

“The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth.”

[BreakFree]

I can get on board with a gardening metaphor with the seed. But I was drawing attention to the fact that in Peter Hay’s document, it had sexual sort of tone it it, which is moving away from gardening and moving into something else.

Vic Hall – when visiting HCF on 1 Dec- actually pushes a sexual metaphor, This is what he says below. And you can hear it on the ‘previous streams’ page on the HCF website https://hcf.org.au/archive/

He changes the language from germination (which is about plants) to conception (the human act of procreation) and even compares to the sexual union between a marries couple.

Do other churches explain baptism using a sexual metaphor like this?

Vic Hall – HCF on 1 Dec 2024

the seed then is the spirit of Christ – the one that makes that seed conceive – just think of a seed… – the seed is Christ – the spirit of Christ- but the conceiving action where that seed conceived in your heart making you a Son of God is the work of the Holy Spirit. The source of it is the Father, he laid it down to the Son, and all the names were given to him. He is the seed – the seed then by the word proclaimed to you by a messenger - which is coming – the word is Christ – through the messenger – lodges all the way through from your ear- you hear it- into your heart. In your heart, and then right there into you spirit, and then the holy spirit then enables the conception.

That actually happened in the womb of the virgin Mary didn’t it. the father over shouted – there’s the seed . the seed is Christ – the person - the identity – Yahweh’s son – son of God- there . the holy spirit then enabled the conception. So it joined to the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary and what came forth was the son of god who was on a journey to become son of man.

What’s the seed? The spirit of the son. And that’s the word, the word, the word means that which is articulated, what which is proclaiming the prophesy, forth telling who you will be, that word is absolutely essential to procreation isn’t it? even here..man and woman, they get married and then the seed of one and the egg of the other- there’s a prophesy happening isn’t it? there’s a word in here, and I look around ta all of you, and I run my eyes over you, and I look at you all, that kid belongs to hat family. and the old person belongs to an older older person.

The son is crying out as he comes into your heart and is being, as the seed, gestated or being born in you- what did I say before..conceived..the conception . so Christ the seed comes , he is a living seed. He came, he came, Yahweh’s son, son of Yahweh- into the heart and womb of the virgin Mary– crying out abba father didn’t he? Shouting it….came into the womb. He comes into your heart the same way cryng abba father that is daddy daddy. He’s saying I am the fathers son, the seed coming into your heart, I am being conceived in your heart so that you can become a son of god.
Now that’s called a baptism

So basically:
-the seed is Christ
-the seed then by the word proclaimed to you by a messenger
-so the word is Christ
-that word is absolutely essential to procreation
-He’s saying I am the fathers son, the seed coming into your heart, I am being conceived in your heart so that you can become a son of god

Baptism according to Vic is the messenger who is Christ cries out daddy daddy and conceives in you a son of God with his seed

No thanks Vic, I’d rather be sprinkled with water

[Paul Kovaks]

Yes it’s horribly jumbled BF.
And unnecessarily sexualised.

All the same, the majority of plants use sexual reproduction, including cereal crops.

[BreakFree]

Im first to admit that I’m not an expert of plants or seed theology, and you would know more about that. Maybe I’m reading to much into this, but when I heard these things, and other things I have been writing about, something in my gut told me this isn’t right. And I think now that is less about theology, and more about power, control and manipulation. Any theological position they have isn’t really about trying to have correct theology, and I am not really wanting to debate whether their theology is correct, I am more interested in how theology is used as a weapon and the tactics they use.

I have known CF was toxic and abusive, but since Samson has told us just how widespread the abuse has been, and how much sexual abuse there has been, I have been overwhelmed. I am struggling with knowing all this trauma has happened in a group I was a part of. And it has gone unreported for so long. I have been trying to understand why and how this happened. Because it didn’t just happen by accident.

I have been doing what I did when I first left CF. I had to make sense of what I cult was. So I read lots of books about cults. Now I want to make sense how widespread abuse can happen and be kept secret for so long. So I am trying to understand grooming. Now I am starting to see that almost everything the leaders say and do is a tactic. I came into CF after Vic’s rise to power and so the story was always spun it was bad but now it’s been cleaned up, what a lie that turned out to be.

So because of all of this, I am very concerned that pushing sexual metaphors like that in between teachings about total obedience to the leaders who talks about themselves being god like and messages that members need to let go of all their boundaries and distrust their emotions, otherwise they are damned, are very dangerous. I now see that there is an agenda behind everything the leaders say, and they say things in different ways, over and over, it wears away boundaries and makes something that is not normal seem normal.

CF content in the books, the sermons, the exhortations, the daily devotions, the prayers, all the meeting they do, it’s all manipulation. It’s more than bad theology or word salad. It’s tactics that have terrorised so many people and silenced victims for so many years. When you think about all the abuses that have happened between, even between adults, you have to wonder how it can happen.
Grooming doesn’t just happen to children. Adults and congregations can be groomed.

“It may not only be the child or young person who is groomed. People who groom children may also groom the organisation they are involved with or individuals around the child, like staff and volunteers, as well as parents and carers. They do this to be seen as safe and trustworthy and have their behaviour viewed as normal.”
From https://ccyp.vic.gov.au/news/child-sexu ... ing/#TOC-1

As previously mentioned this has been confronting me but I feel its important to put the information out there plainly. CF talk in riddles and convoluted ways, I am deliberately avoiding that. It took me a while to be comfortable calling CF a cult and now I’m processing just how bad that cult is.

[Sending.flowers]

I have known CF was toxic and abusive, but since Samson has told us just how widespread the abuse has been, and how much sexual abuse there has been, I have been overwhelmed. I am struggling with knowing all this trauma has happened in a group I was a part of. And it has gone unreported for so long. I have been trying to understand why and how this happened. Because it didn’t just happen by accident.

I have been doing what I did when I first left CF. I had to make sense of what I cult was. So I read lots of books about cults. Now I want to make sense how widespread abuse can happen and be kept secret for so long. So I am trying to understand grooming. Now I am starting to see that almost everything the leaders say and do is a tactic. I came into CF after Vic’s rise to power and so the story was always spun it was bad but now it’s been cleaned up, what a lie that turned out to be.

I think a lot of us were not expecting things to be as bad as they are. I personally have know of a couple of cases of horrific abuse but the results coming out of the Samson survey is worse than I had imagined.

Its so easy for us to downplay how bad XCF in our minds because we spent years in the cult being brainwashed that all their teachings were normal. I have times where I wonder if it was actually that bad because the trauma has blocked so much out. Then I come here and it all comes flooding back.

Even now I will be shocked when we find out yet another elder has abused his children. Just when I think XCF cannot go any lower they do - it's almost like they're determined to dig the hole deeper.

The sexual analogies are unnecessary - can't they do better? It seems they can't. They are so hell bent on this "seed word" that they don't seem to realise how this sounds to normal humans.

That transcript is bizzare to read. It really shows that XCF preachers are not chosen based on their skills at writing sermons and conveying ideas. It reads like they ran a rambly stream of conciousness through chatgpt and asked for it to be even more rambly.

When I think of some of the lectures and sermons I've heard outside of XCF I think of people who have spent time and effort making the best use of the English language. People who haven't just studied theology but writing. For all his ideas Vic Hall is a terrible writer and has the charisma of a mouldy orange - and his underlings are no different.

[Faith Hopegood]

Thanks for giving us an insight into the madness of the present word theology of BCF. For me when I look at this group of phrases, this is where I see the cult at work:

Our body now has become a temple, or a residence, of the Holy Spirit, who enables offering work in us.He is in you, affirming to you that you are a son and an heir of God – on one condition: that you suffer with Christ.When you receive the Holy Spirit, you no longer are the one who is in control of your life.The Spirit does not only birth you; He also joins you to that offering reality, so that what you do in your body are the works of your sonship by which the Father is being glorified.A key indicator of a person’s failure to proceed beyond the prevenient grace of wayside ground is that they can become beset by fear and angst, particularly in relation to matters to do with the church and the body of Christ; and their participation in it. The seed-germination process requires receiving the word from a presbytery. ‘Germination’ requires us to receive understanding through a word from outside of ourselves.

The false statement above “affirming to you that you are a son and an heir of God - on one condition…”. This starts the power play for control - there are conditions on Gods love, if you do this work, perform this act, submit to these men, only then are you a Son of God. They are inserting conditions for salvation - works.

Secondly, the other false statement of control is: ” The seed-germination process requires receiving the word from a presbytery.”. This is a second condition falsely placed - again it is another condition - they have inserted their chosen men in between you and God and try to falsely tell you that you can not hear from God yourself, but only through the “presbytery”. And who are BCF presbytery? A self appointed group of abusing controlling untrained men who are putting themselves forward as “god speaking to you”. They are falselly trying to tell you that the Holy Spirit only works, only speaks to you via them. This is very Old Testament/Catholic teaching - in fact not even that - it is just a straight up false cult control technique.

These guy are false teachers people. If you want to become saved, accept Christ into your life as Lord and Saviour - get down on your knees and pray. Secondly, do you want to hear from God? Then go into a quite place and pray. Talk with God, read your bible, let God know your needs, praise God for what the wonderful salvation He has given to you via Jesus Christ. You will know Christ is alive in your heart because you will have a wonderful sense of peace. The Holy Spirit speaks with a quiet voice to your inner soul.

Love to all in Christ. May He richly bless you in every way and keep you and your family safe.